Staggering the pack and becomming legacy builders vs not

[ramsfan]

Originally Posted by kevlar

Can you let us know what your 4th point was? You seemed to have skipped it.

I fixed it I was in a moment there and lost count.

[66cummins]

I agree ramsfan.. What about extending an offer to some of the Park officials to come and ride along in some empty passenger seats????

[ramsfan]

Originally Posted by 66cummins

I agree ramsfan.. What about extending an offer to some of the Park officials to come and ride along in some empty passenger seats????

I would be game however I am full up, but I do think it is a good idea

[acad54]

If I don't have my "ballast" with me, I would be happy to take a ranger.

[ravencr]

Uh oh, 'dem are fightin' words!

chris

[Rhino]

[quote="ramsfan[i]"]"...rhino I would love to join your chat, but am simply lost in the words you use. Yes I get the point in a round of bout way but you make it difficult to understand what points you want listened to..."[/i]


Fair enough. As you also seem to get lost in your thoughts (below) I tend to cram far to many into one sentance. Here's a few short and sweet in response to your thoughts; please feel free to dispute any or all of it and thanks for replying.

"...I agree if the state collects the same money from me as the do a mc or atv then I should have the same trail use as they do...."

Ahhhhh...yet this is not the case....and never has been!
#1) You can't even begin to discuss true multi-use trail systems with cross-sport cooperation without putting this issue to rest once and for all...

...and #2) you're already the biggest sob on this planet for 'daring' to suggest what you just did out here in public.

I love discussing the concept of us all working together....yet I'm not just willing to let 'the other side' pass on even the most basic of premises before doing so (which is why arguments start in the first place; as opposed to a group such as atv or utvers refusing to allow any one motorized group to play 'God' over the other).

"....and I have seen where there are some areas taking side by sides more serious...."

I am glad that this is happening elsewhere; just obviously not at the largest maintained system in this country (Michigan). No other system of this size (that I know of) has this much potential funding revenue on the line at this moment. Unfortunately, this brings out the worst in people believing that it should be their way or the highway.

"...I know you are not putting this event or anyone here down, but you might want to simplify what you are saying for some of us who get lost in your words...."

I cannot thank you enough for saying just that and this is obviously not my intent in the least. Hopefullly, my thoughts so far have been direct and to the point.

"..I have had some heated issues in other forums on the 50 inch rule..."

Again, the people giving you 'heat' on this issue hope like all holy heck that you first gloss over the much simpler one above related to working together on the same trails. They want you to waste your time arguing ridiculously narrow widths....while they go out and loby more single track "me-only" trails behind your (our) back!
If they can tie you up arguing what they know they'll ride anyways regardless of what width trail it eventually becomes...isn't that one less person questioning the existence of single-track in the first place?

"...and feel that instead of a width rule they should maybe step up to the gov. standard of cc's which is the way they classify side by sides in the atv class due to the fact they wont let it get over a certain HP...."

Understood....but when is the motorcycle crowd forced into acting like something less than arrogant regarding the concept of multi-use systems? For pete's sake, these guys have been brainwashing kids for decades into believing that the motorcycle is God's exclusive gift to motorized recreation and that land should be set aside for their annointed arses...like no other!
Again, since I've never witnessed atvers or utvers arrogantly demand their own separate trails; I've come to the conclusion that by and large they are a pretty 'inclusive' bunch.
Peek in on a dirt bike rider forum once and do a search for the subject of "atvs" even on the trails we both share presently....believe me, you won't like how the 'leaders' in that community have allowed their young and old to act over the past few decades.

"...obviously on some trails you dont want full size 4 wheel drive trucks running down it with 44 inch tires and 350+HP but there should be a place provided for that to happen....."

The full-sizers would gladly join forces with the balance of this community if the majority balance of this community took control and truly believed in the basic tenants of multi-use systems. In my huge state (relatively for trails) it is a matter of honestly bringing the most basic of access-related debates to the forefront....which is why national orv organizations don't desire simple "Q and A" periods to take place at "come to jesus" gatherings like Travel management workshops (where all the parties are under one roof and 'supposedly' seeking input as to how fit everybody on to a limited resource responsibly).

"...Moab they have hundreds and hundreds of miles of trails and they do provide areas for every type of ride, so if that part of the state can do it then why not the other parts that have great trail systems also...."

Every type of ride....so are you saying that they close down areas to multi-use as they do here in Michigan....or do they give trails to motorcyclists that are only accessible by same like say at the Hatfield McCoy System?
There's a difference between building paralell multi-use systems (where overall potential mileage within the accessible area is not affected by the paralell single-track) and simply closing down trails because the AMA and every national orv organization out there cater to their non-profit "buddie's" religion concerning God-given exclusive access.
The wide-open west is an issue in and of itself....every other location in this country begs the cooperation of all groups involved through the creation of true multi-use sytems which effectively FORCE these single-trackers into checking the present arrogant attitude at the door.

"...I guess what I am trying to say is yes I agree and feel there should be more opportunitys out there for all and yes I feel many clubs are just that clubs. But given a chance I fell this group with the help of people like yourself and others who agree can and will make a difference...."

We aren't being given a chance and that's my point.
If you get treated like I've been for 'daring' to talk as I've just did....you aren't even out of the barn.

"...But it wont be overnight and It will take get togethers like this to show we can organize and put on safe events with good results...."

Not bashing the event whatsoever nor safety in general...but having a 'safe' event with 'good results' (are you referring to overall attendance?) won't make a damn bit of difference as to the attitude changing needed that we've talked about here on this thread. If you bring any of this up at a campfire (since no other formal political leaning meeting will be held, apparently, just like every other gathering) you'll be quickly handed a beer and told to 'lighten up' a bit. (nobody's interested in talking about their snot-nosed kid's legacy concerning these areas or these machines....and you know it).

"...I have already mentioned maybe having organized cleznups in parks to 1 help show we care about our trail systems 2 get more attention on what sxs's can do 3 show that it is more then just farmers buying these sxs's 4 they can be safe and fun ways to see the parks 5 meet with officials so they can discuss the future of trails and what would be needed to continue this...."

I'm 100% behind you, my friend. I just don't happen to believe that approaching these issues with "the gloves on" anymore is a responsible way to proceed when considering what's at stake. These orv leaders have wasted literally decades of cross-sport cooperation allowing all of us to go our separate ways for fear of losing even one dollar sent into their cozy non-profits over needed controversy. We cannot continue to teach our kids that one sport is 'superior' to another access-wise and we cannot allow any one group to bash the other as has been allowed for years now within the founding community.

Use these gatherings for at the very least charity events benefitting local organizations and at the most a 'start' in showing that the introduction of the utv has truly been the biggest thing in motorized recreation....ever. (what other machine has
finally allowed the young, old and disabled to enjoy the outdoors as should be their right with the help of generous owners such as us?)

Believe me, there will be plenty of time for sitting around the campfire afterwards.

[ramsfan]

I have read that and agree there are alot of sites out there set up it seems just to bash other types of recreation.

The sad thing is that organization that claim they love the environment while they drive hummers and other 100,000. dollar vehicle or own 3 or more homes that cost in the millions ( so called tree huggers) are enjoying the fact that all types of recreation are at each others throat. that is why I have been trying to get a few things organized with certain parks in states I dont even live in just to try to show that we can all help each other out. What does seem to help is when people see the good that can be done by allowing everyone the same access to areas.

I know this might be a little off subject but , I can say that I have seen alot of people when I go out with my ranger that cant believe how well it does in places they thought it couldnt go, and that alone I have seen changes some of there minds. I dont go where I would trespass and I always carry out what I took in and people do tend to follow good examples. I have seen at least 3 within a few weeks of seeing me out, they went and bout sxs's and thanked me for showing them what the machines could actually do and they are tickled with the potential of the market.

So I think it is changing slower then we really would like but people are the real voice and if we just keep up the positve fight I feel it will make a differance for our kids and there kids and so on , and so on. But we have to stay positive throughout all the negative that is shoved our way by all the sports that dont like others.

[ravencr]

This event will definitely help with awareness, especially if we can lock down some TV coverage and some ATV magazines to cover it as well.

Chris

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by ravencr

This event will definitely help with awareness, especially if we can lock down some TV coverage and some ATV magazines to cover it as well.
Chris

Agreed; yet my simple question here has been....aware of what?

That these machines exist?
While I'm sure that this kind of 'news flash' would be a boost to manufacturers; what does their mere appearance in large numers in one place actually do besides sell rigs, parts and magazines?
Hasn't the largest rider organization out there (AMA) already proven (through their partnership with similiarly one-way focused manufacturers) that focusing on get-togethers, "stuff" or even racing makes a ton of money for all hopping on the it's-all-about-the-money bandwagon....yet creates very little in terms of progress for those saddled with carrying on any type of unified or sustainable legacy tomorrow(?).

Aware of the fact that we bring these things to towns all around this country....yet make absolutely no offer to get the young, old or disabled out to ride along with us....because now these people often never exposed to the outdoors.....are on our time?

Aware of the fact that putting the above idiotic idea aside.....we act like many of the other orv groups rolling into towns all across the country....without charity idea one in hand to help in even the most miniscule of amounts to some kind of local charity?

Aware of the fact that nobody in any gathering interviewed will be able to proudly point to a thing going forward politically....because no two people in said group had ever insisted that the gathering actually "stand" for something to begin with...besides "look at us; we ride utvs!"(?)

Again, not bashing the concept or obviously this great event....just wondering as to why in the heck so many people would spend so much time/money/effort in gathering together out in the middle of nowhere....and not try to advnce some kind of personal or even public agenda in the process! (this must be the "it takes time" thing that I've been hearing about ever since the 3-wheeler was introduced; coupled with the infamous "you catch more flies with honey" approach that has gotten us so far to date).

[ravencr]

John, I understand your concerns. I've spoke with the BLM in supporting one of their trail building/reconstruction efforts and it will be part of the registration process as an opt-in/opt-out. As far as all the political crap, I have no desire to push for something unless the BLM or local communities want to take it upon themselves to make it known that we supported the local communities with a donation to the BLM or whatever else we came up with. My initialy idea was to support the BLM in a trail building effort, which directly effects us and everyone else out there riding the trails.

If you'd like to head up a more political awareness for our event, I'm not opposed to it, and I'll support you and anyone else that wants to be involved, but I'd want to discuss it before moving forward with contacting the City Managers, County commissioners, etc. I've already spoke with both, and they seem like nice folks and willing to help where they can. But, before we go crazy, we need to discuss further on here or through email or phone.

I think it's important to support our local trail systems, lobby for multi-use trails, and do trail clean-ups, etc. It's possible that we get the local papers, television, Utah State Parks, BLM, etc involved and big to-do about us contributing, but quite frankly I'm not in it for recognition, which is what people tend to want out there. If they, without us asking, want to post a press release or short article about it, that's fine with me.

Chris