Staggering the pack and becomming legacy builders vs not

[Rhino]

[quote="ramsfan[i]"]"...I have read that and agree there are alot of sites out there set up it seems just to bash other types of recreation...."[/i]

Then if this is the truth.....where are our national orv leaders in condemning this?

Is it because even on the wrong side of these important debates....these arrogant arse's money spends just as well as ours...and by gosh there's no sense in jeopardizing that 'crazy money' over mere principals that could very well finally unite the intelligent/legacy-driven among us....and move who needs to be forward?

"...The sad thing is that organization that claim they love the environment while they drive hummers and other 100,000. dollar vehicle or own 3 or more homes that cost in the millions ( so called tree huggers) are enjoying the fact that all types of recreation are at each others throat...."

How much money they have or what they drive is not the point.
The sole reason different sports have never united for the good of both us and them is the total lack of upfront leadership and shared vision on OUR part and certainly not theirs.
While I despise these people's 100% elitist type views....how do you compare their "it's my trail or no trail" vision with what you've seen from some of these huge motorcycle groups that nobody dares stand up to?
Should I be at my fellow rider's throat if he's forming "22,000 member" anonymous user groups that won't even reveal how they represent us?
Should I question where 750 miles of trail should go and what it should look like; along with how $4 milllion in just last month unfrozen funds are spent?

"...is why I have been trying to get a few things organized with certain parks in states I dont even live in just to try to show that we can all help each other out. What does seem to help is when people see the good that can be done by allowing everyone the same access to areas...."

Keep up the good work, my friend.

"...So I think it is changing slower then we really would like but people are the real voice and if we just keep up the positve fight I feel it will make a differance for our kids and there kids and so on , and so on. But we have to stay positive throughout all the negative that is shoved our way by all the sports that dont like others....."

Sorry, but it is our very own national orv leadership that has b]allowed[/b] the negative infighting to take place over all these years for the sake of their own pocketbooks and not interrupting the 'politically correct' fat cow that they've been slaying.
I'll stay 'positive' alright....positive that these guys will ride this proverbial fence right on up until the last access-related gate is closed through our lack of willingness to cut through the bs they've created and truly work together.

[ramsfan]

Rhino you had to of got an A+ in debate because you sure are good at it

and as you have stated I do think alot of organizations out there start without any idea of where they want to go or what they want to accomplish.

I know that when I have talked to Chris and others we all feel somethuing needs to be done and I feel it needs to get started here with this group, in a way that will appeal to all. otherwise people will look here and say (here we go another group out to stir things up I dont want to be a part of that)
I feel if we get people to go for the joy of being there and also show that we can accomplish both agendas in one event, can and will be a positive way to do it. How I am not 100% sure that is why I have joined this discusion with you in hopes we can all come up with a way to do it that will not cause others to turn away thinking we are up to no good.

As you have stated there are people out there that think like that and they are the ones who can mess things up fast. So lets keep the discusion on the right track and figure positive ways to get otheres involved

[ravencr]

I've never personally experienced any problems with other vehicles, but I've had them all so I have no reason to pick fights with others on other vehicles. I like them all, but in this time of my life I own a UTV and a couple dual sport motorcycles. I don't really care if a trail is 50" or less, because where we ride there's plenty of other trails available. I can't speak wisely about other areas, but I've never epxerienced what others are saying is such a pain while out on the trails.

Chris

[kevlar]

I used to Mountain Bike a lot and I would not want motorized vehicles destroying my single track either. We had to share with horses too, and they ruined our tracks. So I understand where there coming from. The Jeepers and ATVers shouldnt have a problem with us though.

[ravencr]

I agree with that 100%.

Chris

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by ravencr

John, I understand your concerns. I've spoke with the BLM in supporting one of their trail building/reconstruction efforts and it will be part of the registration process as an opt-in/opt-out. As far as all the political crap, I have no desire to push for something unless the BLM or local communities want to take it upon themselves to make it known that we supported the local communities with a donation to the BLM or whatever else we came up with. My initialy idea was to support the BLM in a trail building effort, which directly effects us and everyone else out there riding the trails.

If you'd like to head up a more political awareness for our event, I'm not opposed to it, and I'll support you and anyone else that wants to be involved, but I'd want to discuss it before moving forward with contacting the City Managers, County commissioners, etc. I've already spoke with both, and they seem like nice folks and willing to help where they can. But, before we go crazy, we need to discuss further on here or through email or phone.

I think it's important to support our local trail systems, lobby for multi-use trails, and do trail clean-ups, etc. It's possible that we get the local papers, television, Utah State Parks, BLM, etc involved and big to-do about us contributing, but quite frankly I'm not in it for recognition, which is what people tend to want out there. If they, without us asking, want to post a press release or short article about it, that's fine with me.

Chris

Chris,
I sure appreciate someone like yourself posting a fair and non-dismissive answer to some of these more far-reaching questions that might not necessarily even apply to your area or event. I also appreciate the chance to say what I've said without being chastised for doing so; as this once again proves to me that the only ones fighting multi-use trail systems.....are the ones who stand to lose the most when they are built or supported. (again, I've never met arrogant folk in the orv world sporting more than 2 wheels or who didn't run some kind of national orv organization running 'cover' for those with less than 4).

Thanks for the chance to speak my peace.

[Rhino]

[quote="ramsfan[i]"]"...and as you have stated I do think alot of organizations out there start without any idea of where they want to go or what they want to accomplish...."[/i]

Agreed and I'll give you a quick example.
I joined an atv club out here years ago that had un-elected leadership and that same leadership representing us at the state level with no questions being answered when put forth as to just how this was being done. After the club called me every name in the book for pointing this out....they all had enough themselves and quit to form their own.

Being a glutton for punishment ...I joined the new club under the premise that we'd be laying down some multi-use related political platforms before we started to outline our direction in the future.

To make a long story short; through inaction related to "let's just ride" and "what are the t-shirts going to look like?" the above club was very quickly and simply infiltrated by the local motorcycle club (who are no dummies) to the point that they were forced to voting on becoming a sub-chapter under the single-trackers!
Suddenly, these atvers had absolutely no voice on issues such as finally building 60" multi-use trails when Polaris came to town to support such legislation...as the "me-only-trail" guys that they were in bed with by then obviously didn't want anything to do with 'sharing' trails....and killed any and all debate on said issue within 26 hours!.

"...I know that when I have talked to Chris and others we all feel somethuing needs to be done and I feel it needs to get started here with this group, in a way that will appeal to all. otherwise people will look here and say (here we go another group out to stir things up I dont want to be a part of that)...."

While I support this concept and will in any way I can...the concept of any one group 'stirring things up' in regards to simply fighting for the concept of working together has never happened before to my knowledge. I'd also argue the phrase "I don't want to be a part of that" has never been proven to cause illness in those who believed in what they were doing in the first place.
This is the problem with our national orv organizations.
Leadership hoping to be everything to everybody....yet never coming down on one side or the other on the issues which define us in the first place.

"....I feel if we get people to go for the joy of being there and also show that we can accomplish both agendas in one event, can and will be a positive way to do it. How I am not 100% sure that is why I have joined this discusion with you in hopes we can all come up with a way to do it that will not cause others to turn away thinking we are up to no good...."

The last part, forgive me, but I do not understand.
What exactly is...being "up to no good"?

Requesting that the NOHVCC or any of these other sponsors concerning these hugely important travel mangement workshops....actually include "Q and A" periods on their agenda over 4 days of parading the most important people in our sport before us?

Questioning groups like the AMA, BRC or NOHVCC....period? (especially when the mess here in large trails systems like Michigan has been allowed to progress to the point where countless good people have been outright scared away?).

How about somebody like myself fighting for our only public orv meetings to even be held or for that matter properly recorded for the record? (not to mention non-AMA leadership given the chance to aplly for board positions?).

"....As you have stated there are people out there that think like that and they are the ones who can mess things up fast. So lets keep the discusion on the right track and figure positive ways to get otheres involved...."

I guess that I've 'revealed' way to much here and that my above examples; while true-to-life....aren't exactly the 'pc' way of going about things that has gotten our non-two-wheeled sport the huge amounts of respect that we enjoy today. (sorry to be so sarcastic; yet it's the truth).

Thank you very much for your opinion and do know that I respect same greatly. (I have simply a 100% different perspective with the single largest AMA district in the nation being supported nationally here with absolutely no peon public questioning 'allowed'.....)

[Rhino]

[quote="ravencr"]"I've never personally experienced any problems with other vehicles, but I've had them all so I have no reason to pick fights with others on other vehicles...."

I'm not sure whether owning a motorcycle has anything to do with sharing the same trail for the sake of not dividing the community itself. Furthermore, if insisting that we all get on the same trail or simply asking a motorcyclist to explain just why they 'divinely' deserve separate trails that nobody else ever requests for the sake of community unity... is "picking a fight"....then where does the debate begin? (or has this cleverly been the manner in which all debate has been snuffed in the past to prevent us from ever becoming unified....and present cycle leadership perhaps 'diluted'???).

"...I like them all, but in this time of my life I own a UTV and a couple dual sport motorcycles. I don't really care if a trail is 50" or less, because where we ride there's plenty of other trails available. I can't speak wisely about other areas, but I've never epxerienced what others are saying is such a pain while out on the trails...."

Which is the ironic thing I notice about national orv organizations.
You guys out west want us to send in our first born and any money we can to preserve your "we don't care about 50" trail; we've got it all" attitudes out west...yet when cyclists back east here are bastardizing the same "shared trails" mission statement that you've collected our money under out west....we're supposed to support the same national guys backing these arrogant stormtroopers up in their quest to keep every trail 50" or narrower.

Sounds like a deal to me!

[Rhino]

[quote="kevlar"]"...I used to Mountain Bike a lot and I would not want motorized vehicles destroying my single track either....."

Whose single track?
So as these arrogant motorcyclists have pointed out ever so 'nicely' over the years....you evidently met God himself in the woods one day where he annointed both of you dominion over said trail to the justified angry exclusion of all others.(and he gave you this power after certain assurances including that all other users would be allowed to do the same due to the infinite possibilities out there to hack out said opportunities wherever they saw fit).

I'm sorry, but this is the same "it's my trail" crap that has plagued us all from day one.

"...We had to share with horses too..."

Oh my gosh...how can it get any worse?...

"...and they ruined our tracks(!)..."

You're right...and on YOUR trail, by gosh!!!
Since we're talking mountain bikes here; why don't you click on this link and go down to the "Full Multi-use" heading...I think you might find it interesting....
http://www.safecycling.ca/BetterBicy...gatineau.shtml
(IMO, a great article that could never be written today about the motorized portion of our community due to the the sheer arrogance we are all saddled with at the leadership level).

"...So I understand where there coming from...."

So let's see how many trails we've got to build separately here:
Hikers
Road Bikers
Mountain Bikers
Horses
Segways
Wheelchairs
Skateboards
Motorcycles
ATVS
UTVs
Golf Carts...Hey, they deserve to have God-given separate trails too; they go slower and don't necessarily "like" (motorcyclists favorite word from the never revealed trail 'bible') to be passed and have dirt spit in their face....
...and many others that I can't necessarily think of right now.
Is it any wonder why national leadership in every one of these sports just can't figure out why there is such a huge problem with everybody working (quote/unquote) "together" on trail issues???.

"...The Jeepers and ATVers shouldnt have a problem with us though."

I guess not....because the motorcyclistsy still ride them all....and they still demand thousands of miles more....exclusively for themselves!

It'd be sad if anybody gave a damn in regards to everybody getting along and working together....yet obviously, logic coupled with how many 'real life examples' reveals that they simply just don't.

[ff2-emtb]

I've been lurking on this thread, as I am sure many others are as well. John you make some valid points, I guess. I say that because in the 15 years of owning dirt bikes, ATV, and now my UTV, I have yet to have been a "victim" of these groups/orgnization/club whatever that he describes. John, I'm not bashing you, but I sense in your posts an awful lot of hostility towards the groups that you obviously feel are, for lack of a better term, evil. I almost sense a personal agenda within your discussion, which is fine, thats your ideal, go for it. I can appreciate wanting active discussion with national groups and am all for working together, however, lets face it. That will never happen in our lifetime because it has been so engrained into the psyche of the owners of these, or any trail type vehicle, and I include every group here, horse, bike, hiker, pogo stick, whatever. In a utopian society, yes, we could all have 50" or wider trails, everyone would wave and say hi to each other, and every night we would all get together and sing songs around the campfire. This, as you well know, is not utopia. Call me simple, but quite frankly, I could care less right now about what a national group is doing about allowing me to ride on a trail 1000 miles from here. I'm a little more concerned with getting the state of Iowa to even allow me to register my Ranger so I can ride on the the trails already here. I'll worry about national after I get state down first. I learned a long time ago that it isn't WHO you take on, but HOW you take them on that can either point towards a victory or point to a defeat.